I say we ban all clothing. Who's with me?

 

And yes, apathetic, sure thing. If it weren't for the winter, I would never see why we wear them in the first place.

 

Hmm...isn't that funny, Jonjax...some men look better with paper bags over their heads and cloth covering their whole bodies, too!

Now why don't we have a line of burqas for men!? :)

 

I definitely have mixed feelings about this. Can any of you imagine going through life wearing such a thing? I know I would be in a state of turmoil...but, I am only looking from the outside in.

I would like the women to simply feel that they have a choice...to break free of this mental, spiritual, and physical domination. How wonderful it would be to see all their beautiful faces! :) Their bodies must be craving the sunlight and fresh air!

The problem is...the way things are set up...they don't dare suffer the consequences of exercising free choice. This is why I can see that it may be necessary for the government to get involved. It is a religious practice, but one that infringes on basic human rights.

There are plenty of other examples of religious and cultural practices that infringe on women's rights, in particular...and something must be done! In my opinion, the burqa is just another symbol/example of the oppression of women.

 

Everything i've heard about Sarkozy i've loved. What makes you think he's a bad President?

 

BK,


As you stated in your post, one could argue that it isn't much of a choice, which is the argument I would make. At the same time however, there ARE Muslim women who actually do prefer to wear the Burqa, or Hijab.

I'm not as optimistic as you seem to be that Muslim women will be able to gain their rights like American women did. Islamic Societies under Sharia law and America before women had the vote are two very dramatically different societies. Women living under Sharia law are far more oppressed and beaten down than those in America were. In some of these societies, women can get beaten if they aren't dressed correctly. They can get stoned for adultery and even get punished for being raped. Women living in these societies don't have much hope for freedom unless they are able to escape somehow. It is a very sad reality.

 

"Once the door of opportunity is opened...there is no telling where she may go...and being a mother may be just one part of her lifestory, or not a part at all."

That's true. I suppose the question is: how will that door of opportunity ever be opened?

 

This is true. It happens in Saudi Arabia as well as other Muslim countries that are under Sharia law.

 

France is only one piece of the problem puzzle as other nations also colonized Africa at greater and lesser levels plus perhaps worse of all was the missionaries invading the cradle of civilization continent, Alkebulan.

 

In part he's correct. The COLLECTIVE colonialization of Africa has lead to africa being the 3rd world latrine that it is today, not just from France

 

That's a very sexy proposition. LOL.

Where the f**k do governments get off telling someone they cannot wear a burqa? I am totally against religion but no government has the right to tell people they CANNOT practice their religion in whatever manner they see fit as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others.

 

Some women look better in burqas than without it

 

I agree with thoughtprocess in that if a woman (or man I guess) wants to wear a burqa then they should have that right. However, women should not be required to wear the burqa if they don't want to, regardless of religion.

So to clarify I am arguing for the burqa only insofar as I would for any article of clothing. Cultural or religious significance has nothing to do with it.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what a burqa looks like, just that it's a religious clothing article. As far as I'm aware, we still practice freedom of religion, so wear it all you want. If your religion calls for you to wear a skullcap and knee pads on the third waning gibbous Moon of the year, feel free to do so. Of course, please wear something to cover up the rest of your body as well. ;)

 

Sarkozy's argument was that it's demeaning to women. It is, however, the hypocrisy of an 80% Catholic nation telling another religion they cannot openly practice it the way they choose when their own religion often carries sexist overtones is outrageous. (On a side note, Sarkozy is a terrible president and I sincerely hope for France that he is voted out at the next election.)

 

I completly agree with you which is why my wife and I were huge fans of The Unknown Comic before he became famous appearing on the Gong Show. We used to check out his comedy a few miles from our home here in Pasadena's legendary Ice House

 

I lived through the late 1960s/early 70s "burn the bra" and go bra-less movement and many women felt just like you stated, some were hung up, some couldn't care less. it was a wonderful time and great addendum to the "sexual revolution"

 

I actually have mixed feelings about this too, but in the end, I have to say that they shouldn't ban the Burqa, as much as I dislike it. It is a symbol of oppression of women, but if a Muslim woman in France wants to wear it, then I don't think it's right for the government to tell her she can't.

The troubling part for me though, is that most of the Muslim community in France tends to stay within their neighborhoods, so it seems likely that women would still wear burqas out of pressure from the men there. I don't know. It's hard to say. I could be wrong. I just think it is sad that women would have to subject themselves to this kind of dehumanizing oppression.

 

I sometimes wonder if one of the worst things we, in the West, can do, is assume that we know what is best for others, or that we understand their own needs better than they do.

You may be surprised to hear, as I was to learn, that while in Saudi Arabia I found that the majority of clerics were (relatively) liberal on the future of women in their society when compared to similar conversations with the women themselves, who often affirmed that they were doing exactly what they felt they should be doing in their society by staying indoors, wearing the oppressively hot burqa and raising children...that this is, in fact, their choice.

Now, you can always argue that it's not much of a choice, any more than the young girls and boys born in polygamist colonies in Utah and British Columbia had a "choice" in exploring their values, and it'd be perfectly reasonable to argue that.

But then again, what if it really was a choice?

This will probably (and hopefully) illicit some disagreement from others, but I believe that in the Western world, women effectively liberated themselves. The great strides that women made, to push back against their defined gender roles, were self-determined and self-actualized. Women weren't GIVEN the power to be what they are today, they always had it, and finally chose to use it.

If that is true, then I perhaps it must also be so in the Arab world, and that instead of attacking a lifestyle that we view as being oppressive, we should limit ourselves to providing opportunities for those who come to our borders, and watching with fingers-crossed that Arab women will find the same power within themselves that their Western counterparts have.

 

I thought I could add a little addendum to your post: I have read and heard that in some segments of Muslim societies women are not allowed to leave the house without a male companion. They are at times reduced to bringing a male relative, sometimes infants, so that they may do something mundane like going to the market.

 

That is indeed the sad reality for women living in Islam...and if wearing the burqa is their "choice"...one has to question the alternatives.

Also, let's keep in mind that young girls in Islamic societies are raised to think and act under a state of oppression. They can choose to follow with the program, to survive...or perish.

Had they been raised differently, with the privilege of an education and the freedoms most all of us take for granted, the choices for their future may be very different. Remaining in the home to raise children may still be a choice for some, but certainly not for all.

Once the door of opportunity is opened...there is no telling where she may go...and being a mother may be just one part of her lifestory, or not a part at all.

 

Watchman posted: "That's true. I suppose the question is: how will that door of opportunity ever be opened?"

Yes...that is the question, and that is my struggle...when discussing human rights vs. religion. It's not that I am interested in dictating what other peoples/cultures should believe in, or practice. It's just that, when you look at the conditions...we have gone to war for other countries over lesser things. If we are true believers in democracy and the sanctity of human life...we should not tolerate these behaviors.

 

I've heard only bad things, such as this story. He's also stated that France's colonisation of Africa did not lead to Africa being in such a bad state now, a blatant lie.

 

Yes, but he basically implied that France had nothing to do with that, which is false, I haven't read much on this but I have heard many historians say that France was a terrible coloniser. My history teacher cited Vietnam (Indochina) as an example of this.